Carb Back-Loading Q’s, Kiefer A’s, Part I
written by sean hyson
At long last he speaks! I’ve been promising an exclusive interview with Kiefer, creator of Carb Back-loading, for months now. In fact, I was the first one to sit down with him after his e-book officially launched, but a series of delays kept me from revealing our discussion until now.
Believe me, it was worth the wait.
Kiefer answers all kinds of questions about his controversial diet, and then fields numerous other ones about various general nutrition topics. We spoke for an hour and I walked away with some information that I’m sure is going to blow your mind. I’ve transcribed the entire conversation and will put it up a little at a time over the course of this week. Go to muscleandfitness.com to hear the audio of our discussion.
Go HERE to pick up a copy of Kiefer’s e-book, Carb Back-Loading 1.0.
PART I
Sean: One question I see all the time is if [Carb Back-loading] can be done even when your body clock is totally out of whack with the time of day. You say cortisol peaks at 7 a.m., but what if you work nights and go to bed at around 5 a.m.? Would cortisol then rise toward the end of your sleep cycle, even though it’s later in the day—around 1 p.m., maybe—or is it hardwired to rise at 7 a.m.
Kiefer: Some people will sleep in a room without blacking out all the sunlight. In those instances, the body stays pretty close to regular circadian rhythms. Your body will still try to be in tune with sunlight if you’re not blocking out sun. But then you have people who are up all night and then basically make a cave for themselves when they sleep, and there’s not as much research on that. It does shift, but it’s somewhat erratic. I’ve worked with people where it’s appeared to have shifted perfectly with their sleep cycle. So even though they’re waking up at 6 p.m., everything is normal. And then I’ve worked with people where it just didn’t seem to benefit them… I would recommend still doing back-loading as advertised. I would avoid food when you first get up. People in those instances who are the most successful also train right after they get up. So maybe they’re getting up at 7 p.m., training, and then going off to work at night.
Sean: So then that guy’s 7 p.m. is like our 7 a.m.?
Kiefer: Correct. In a way, it makes it nice for those people. They get to enjoy the breakfast foods. [When they get back from work, it’s most people’s breakfast time, and since they’ve already trained] they can have pancakes, [hash browns, other starchy or sugary carbs].
Sean: You say that high-glycemic, insulin-spiking carbs are best at night because they’ll cause insulin to crash before you go to bed and more growth hormone will be released through the night. If we can’t eat carbs during the day, and we’re only allowed sugary or starchy ones at night, is there ANY place in the diet for standard bodybuilding fare like oats and brown rice while back-loading?
Kiefer: No! [laughs]
Sean: You say in the book that sweet potatoes are ok at night. I’m curious because brown rice and oats are generally put in the same category by bodybuilders. But you’re saying brown rice and oats have no place?
Kiefer: That’s correct. I used to think that as well. I just assumed that because they were always put together in conversation that sweet potatoes or yams are low-glycemic, but they’re not. They’re actually medium to high-glycemic. They can work on the back-loading diet. But the brown rice and oats, there’s really no place for them.
You don’t have to eat like this to be big and lean
Sean: It also depends on how you cook them, right? Just like with bananas, the riper they get, the sweeter. I think the longer you cook a sweet potato, the sweeter it becomes.
Kiefer: That’s exactly right. You could eat a raw sweet potato and get no insulin reaction.
Sean: And whole fruit then goes by the same logic?
Kiefer: It depends on the fruit. Really ripe bananas and grapes are really high-glycemic. Mangoes are pretty good.
Sean: So if I’m a strict back-loader then, apples, pears, and blackberries are going to have little to no appearance in my diet?
Kiefer: Maybe some berries. I’d definitely stay away from apples, pears. Citrus fruits are ok. You can include fruit but it shouldn’t be the main source of your carbs.
Sean: Back-loading aside, are we losing anything nutritionally by not including fruit in our diet? Should we eventually work them into the diet, or can we back-load indefinitely?
Kiefer: There’s not anything in fruit that you can’t get from the vegetables you’re allowed to eat in the first half of the day on back-loading. I’m assuming, and I recommend it in the book, that there’s quite a bit of vegetable consumption going on in the low-carb part of the day. People should barely even need a multivitamin if they’re eating properly.
Sean: I was aghast to read that pasta is a so-called “horrible” carb to eat post-workout, even at the ideal training time [between 3 and 6 p.m.]. You mention gluten-sensitivity as being a reason for that, which is a good point, but you also say pasta is not high-glycemic, which flies in the face of everything else I’ve ever heard.
Kiefer: It’s not very high-glycemic, but again I’m assuming people are cooking it al dente. If you cook it so long that it becomes a mush, then it is higher-glycemic. But it’s still not as good of a choice as an extremely ripe banana.
Sean: I think you recommended pasta for carb ups in [your earlier book] The Carb Nite Solution.
Kiefer: I did. At the time, my education wasn’t quite as in depth as it is now. Until recently I thought the whole gluten-sensitivity thing was just in people’s heads, but now I’ve seen quite a bit of research that suggests that as many as 50% of people have it and it’s a major problem.
Sean: If that’s out, then what are your top 5 carb choices on a back-load?
Kiefer: White rice, white potatoes, yams and sweet potatoes, corn.
Sean: No cherry turnovers?
Kiefer: [laughs] I was going for whole foods, but if you want to open the door up, then yes, turnovers, cookies. Ice cream is an excellent one. That was the first carb back-loading food.
Sean: You say that you shouldn’t back-load on your off days unless you’re planning to train the next morning. You say this will allow for an even greater insulin spike when you take your post-workout nutrition the next morning. Can you explain why that is?
Kiefer: We know that what you eat several hours or even a day before can affect how your body responds to food the next day, and even potentially through the week. So they did studies where they tested certain types of carbohydrates with different insulin responses before they went to bed and then in the morning they would do a similar cross-battery of tests of carbohydrates and gylcemic loads and if you eat high inulinotropic carbs before bed, your body will respond even more strongly to insulin to any carb you eat the next morning.
Sean: That’s interesting, because a lot of us think of every morning as starting fresh.
Kiefer: If you’re training in the morning, you have a very small window to get a very big insulin spike with as few carbs as possible. So in that instance it’s very important to eat the high-glycemic carbs before bed to get as much of an insulin response as possible.
Kiefer in action
Sean: So if I train two mornings back to back, I should eat carbs the night before that first training session, back-load that first training day, and then not back-load the evening of the second training day.
Kiefer: That is correct. You’re always eating not so much to recover from your workout as to prepare for the next day’s workout. Those carbs become glycogen for the next session.
Sean: You seem to indicate that training fasted, or on just coffee, is best if training first thing in the morning. So if I train in the morning, should I not have the AM Accelerator Shake you recommend in the book—coconut oil and whey—and why not?
Kiefer: No, and my answer is based on a lack of knowledge. If you train fasted first thing in the morning, the upregulation of growth factors for muscle is double what it is if you were to eat before the training session.
Sean: We’ve discussed this before and you’ve said that that information is based on only one study. Have you read any more on that since?
Kiefer: I unfortunately haven’t. But it’s better safe than sorry.
Sean: You mean it would be better to train totally fasted than to even have a little bit of coconut oil before?
Kiefer: As far as I know, yes.
Sean: I would think the coconut oil would be beneficial, and give you a quick energy boost.
Kiefer: Well, that could be the problem. It might be the introduction of any exogenous fuel source that might change that reaction.
Sean: So the AM Accelerator Shake is really for guys who are going to train later in the day like you’re ideally supposed to. But you bag that if you have to train in the morning?
Kiefer: That’s correct.
Sean: While we’re on the subject, the AM Accelerator Shake recipe in the book calls for one gram of MCT oil. I figure that had to be a misprint.
Kiefer: It’s supposed to say one tablespoon. One tablespoon of MCT oil is 100% MCTs, and coconut oil is only about 70%, so MCT oil is more optimal.
Sean: You mention that when training in the morning, Vivarin or another caffeine supplement would be better than coffee. You make a strong argument for drinking coffee throughout the book, so I’m wondering why Vivarin gets the preference in this case.
Kiefer: When you’re trying to use caffeine in the morning to mimic the circadian rhythm that allows for the perfect training time, you’re trying to suppress the insulin sensitivity in your cells. The caffeine alkaloids in Vivarin have a stronger effect than coffee. It’s a matter of potency. You can add caffeine powder to your coffee too.
Sean: When you give these coffee recommendations, you’re talking about one to two cups, right?
Kiefer: That’s correct.
Come back later for Part II...
And go to muscleandfitness.com to hear the whole interview.
Buy the Carb Back-loading e-book HERE
Comments
09 Apr, 2012
Sam
Awesome stuff. I can say, doing this for two weeks, it works. Abs are coming back in...if only you could ask him where beer fits into this diet!
10 Apr, 2012
Paul Nobles
Beer would be back loaded.
11 Apr, 2012
NY Trainer
You can't back-load beer! Ever!
11 Apr, 2012
Schneider
I'm curious how this fits with a Soldiers lifestyle. Early morning cardio/PT session with a 4pm lifting session. How would you backload for that? I mean you're working out first thing in the AM as well as in the afternoon.
11 Apr, 2012
Sean Hyson
Schneider,
You would probably have no carbs after the cardio and then back-load after the 4PM workout. If for some reason you were strength training both times, I would do about 30g of carbs after the morning session and then back-load hard at night.
12 Apr, 2012
Jimmy
This was a great interview and am looking forward to part 2. Is it safe to say that Keifer would not recommend BCAA prior to a morning workout?
12 Apr, 2012
Cody
Great interview and very valuable information here. Keep it coming brother! By the way, some studies have shown caffeine in coffee to not be as effective in endurance trials; although the reasons why have not yet been determined. I wonder whether mixing it w/ the coffee would actually decrease its potency for endurance during physical activity?
13 Apr, 2012
Sean Hyson
Jimmy,
the rest of the interview goes into that. In short, it's not a good idea.
Cody,
Would mixing concentrated caffeine into coffee decrease the potency? I don't see why. What are you referring to?
15 Apr, 2012
Neal
Sean
I am wondering if you can clarify something for me. I have bought Kiefers CBL book but just wanted to run something past you. If you are training in the morning you should backload on the evening before this, would you backload the same amount of carbs as on a pure carb backloading afternoon training session?
Thanks
16 Apr, 2012
Cody
Sean,
I should have said an INTERPRETATION of studies. What specifically comes to mind is a brief mention of a possible phenomenon in which there may be something "present in coffee that prevents the usual ergogenic effect of caffeine." This is found in Lore of Running by Tim Noakes, MD (4th ed). Sorry for the confusion caused by poorly formed question. Do you know anything about the idea that coffee may contain some sort of said substance, and if so, would it be better to avoid mixing Vivarin w/ it?
18 Apr, 2012
Sean Hyson
Neal,
that is correct, and there is more info on this topic in the rest of my interview. The amount of carbs depends on how you look. You need to experiment with that.
Cody,
I am not familiar with that research but I have discussed this with Kiefer and he still recommends mixing Vivarin with coffee for a greater effect. We were talking in the context of strength training, so endurance could be different.
19 Apr, 2012
Cody
Thanks Sean.
20 Apr, 2012
Neal
Thank you for replying Sean, I look forward to reading the rest of the interview.
20 Apr, 2012
Neal
Thank you for replying Sean, I look forward to reading the rest of the interview.
20 Apr, 2012
John Tan
Hi! I've been reading about CBL and thought about getting it but everywhere I read says I need to workout between 3 to 5. The way my life and work is, I get up at about 6am, do my job, and would only be able to train at night, about 7 or even 8pm. Would CBL still work? Should I consider it? Thanks!!
21 Apr, 2012
raja
i', just wondering i drink green tea before workout at 9.00 in morning is it ok?
23 Apr, 2012
Sean Hyson
John, this point is discussed on this site and in the interview on muscleandfitness.com
Raja,
Yes, although it won't work as well as coffee as there isn't as much caffeine.
30 Apr, 2012
Eric
If you train in the morning is your backload after the workout or at night? If i workout Mon, Tues, Thursday & Friday mornings I would backload, for example sunday and monday night. What do I do on tuesday? Do I load right after the morning workout?
01 May, 2012
Sean Hyson
Eric,
at night.
On Tuesday, you wouldn't back-load at all. Some carbs after the workout but then low carb all day.
05 May, 2012
Clement
Hi Sean, if eating fruits like pears and apples don't spike insulin like white potatoes, citrus fruits and the like, is it safe to conclude that on the carb backloading diet I could eat them in the day with my proteins and fats? Would that still be carb backloading, given that I only have a piece of pear/apple, instead of vegetables, with a protein? It would be the ony source of carbs during the day (much like vegetables in the original CBL diet)
07 May, 2012
Sean Hyson
Clement,
No, do not eat those fruits. They still contain sugar and the more you eat the less fat your body can burn. Kiefer's point is to minimize them. You CAN have some during the back-loading at night, but they're not effective for spiking insulin so they shouldn't be taken in abundance. During the day, you can't have carbs, so they don't work well then either.
I guess you could have a piece of a pear or apple during the low-carb part of the day, but it would be better to have vegetables.
16 May, 2012
Luke
Hi Sean,
I work over nights from 9pm- 7am and usually come home eat 5 egg whites and 1 egg plus a protein shake. Wake up around 3 or 4pm and work out immediately because I like to relax before work by taking another hour nap or so.I use a pre & Post workout protein shake some gatorade in the shake also turkey sandwich post workout. Dinner i have a protein,carbs,veg,and small fat source(630 pm). After 9 pm til 6am at work all I do is snack on a protein bar, some jerky , healthy nutts or an Apple every two hours.... What would you recommend changing keeping ect. Am I suppose to be loading late at night when I'm at work from 9pm-7 am or at dinner time 6pm and til when? How often should I eat these carbs still every 2-3 hrs?
16 May, 2012
Luke
This looks very interesting and want to give it a try. Right now I'm on a low carb cutting diet by cutting carbs and increasing proteins and small increase fat intake and can see results but feel as if I could be making better strength gains and add muscle while still getting lean if I know how to do carb back loading correctly for my unique work sleep eat schedule. Work out 6 days a week plus my 7th day is usually active rest of some kind light cardio. Sports or just working on a week spot muscle group. I take a recovery week every 4-6 weeks . Would these weeks be low carbs when I'm not working out and just doing cardio? Sry for all the questions this just looks very intriguing and want to do the right thing for all my hard work to get max results.
21 May, 2012
Sean Hyson
Luke,
I think you should eat low carb at work and up until your workout. After the workout until you go to work, eat lots of carbs.
Your recovery weeks should be low-carb, yes.
16 Jun, 2012
Simon
Hello,
I rly wanna know one thing...
* My Fasting time is about 14 hours +-
* Then I eat just Proteins+Fats (eggs,olive oil,tuna,protein powder,meat,nuts,coconut oil)
* During training - Amino X, during cardio also Amino X
* After training protein 1,5 - 2 scoops
* 1,5h - 2h. after my workout - icecream,a lot of meat, rice, some kind of dressing w/e
* Next just some tuna w/ olive oil, protein powder for sufficiency proteins
BUT,
Im not sure with one thing. Is there possible eat something like (burgers,rice,ice cream,cereals,milk) after my CBL meal (which is 2h after my workout) ?
Or after this CBL meal i can only eat some "clean" meal just like protein powder, tuna, meat or so, cuz those stuffs like (burgers,rice,ice cream,cereals,milk) will go to the bodyfat?
17 Jun, 2012
Sean Hyson
Simon,
Eat anything you want after that workout, provided it occurs late in the day. Your first meal post-training sounds good. Have another one like that.
26 Jun, 2012
Sam
Hey Sean great article bro. I only have one question about what I should eat in the morning if I do cardio after I wake up. Should I just drink coffe before my cardio session or should I drink the A.M accelerator shake that contains coffee whey and MCT oil. Thanks for any advice you can give me bro.
23 Jul, 2012
Sean Hyson
Sam,
Have the shake after cardio.
01 Aug, 2012
Rick
Hi Sean,
If I'm contest dieting how would this carb back loading apply if I do morning cardio fasted, and train at 530 I compete at 197 and having no carbs before training I feel like my strength will suffer? Also I work construction what type of meals do u reccomend I eat during the day to sustain energy? Thanks
01 Aug, 2012
Rick
I am on a high carb diet now 300 lo days- 1000 high days 2 times a week btw
01 Aug, 2012
Tom
Sean,
I followed your link to Kiefer's book and tried to purchase it. The link on his page said the product is no longer available. Do you have any info on this?
02 Aug, 2012
Sean Hyson
Tom,
It should be fixed now. Click the link above.
Rick,
If you're a construction guy, that changes things. I would have more carbs during the day and then back-load heavily after every workout. This may be something you might want to take up with Kiefer, as yours is a unique situation.
08 Aug, 2012
Adam
Sean,
I really appreciate all the advice you're giving. I have a question to ensure that for my routine I am back loading appropriately.
I generally work out with a very intensive resistance programme (5 3 1) 3 times a week. I'd ordinarily add in high intensity cardio 2 or 3 three times a week but can't at the moment due to a minor short term muscular leg injury (also meaning I can't deadlift or squat really currently. On which nights should I be back loading? I have just arrived home from a big OH Pressing session and havent eaten carbs all day, will be working out again on Wednesday with a possible long walk tomorrow. Should I be back loading tonight?
Many thanks for the invaluable knowledge.
Adam
08 Aug, 2012
Sean Hyson
Adam,
Back-load on any night you train. If you can't do lower-body, it just means fewer back-loading days.
heal up!
09 Aug, 2012
Brian Talbot
How would this fit in for a chef?
AM Cardio Based workout
Kitchen 10-4pm
PM around 4-5pm Strength Training
Kitchen 8-11pm
Thanks
05 Sep, 2012
Sean Hyson
Brian,
low carb all day and back-load after strength training. Your schedule fits CBL perfectly.
05 Sep, 2012
Tom
If i train an hour after waking. Would i be correct to skip breakfast, only having coffee. Then eat carbs directly post workout for an hour, and then an even larger amount of carbs for the last 5 hours before i sleep?
09 Sep, 2012
Mark
Hey, great article!
Question: I get up about 8-9am and I train at 11-30am. I'm having a black coffee or 2 at 9am and then a protein shake at 10-45-11ish .. Is it ok for me to have this protein shake before i train or should I just wait until my post workout shake?
I figured since my workout is late AM and not early AM I would be ok to have the protein shake as my cortisol levels would already have dropped by then.
22 Sep, 2012
Jack
Hey sean quick question, you said somewhere that u need to eat vegetables in place of fruits like apples/pears etc. when carb backloading. Could I eat fruits (mainly becuase i like them alot better than veggies) like apples, pears, plums instead of veggies b/c wont i be getting the same fiber thats in them
11 Nov, 2012
Daniel
Hey Sean. Im not exactly sure how to work the carb back loading according to my type of training. I am a dancer. a style of dance called popping. I dance on average 2-3 hours a day. i would say that its moderately intense. I dont get sore but i sweat quite a bit and the dance requires me to constantly contract my muscles. I also do resistance training 3 times a week. should i carb back load on days i dance as well as resistance training? or count the days i dance as my off days and just fats and protein on those days?
28 Nov, 2012
Spencer
Sean,
So I have a few backloading questions. I am density bulking and train 3 days a week (sometimes 4). If I train on say Monday evening, would i still backload Monday nite even though I am taking off on Tuesday? Also, on Tuesday nite should I backload for Wednesday evening's training session, just have a single carb meal, or go sans carbs?
Now let's say I train on back to back days (Mon and Tues). So I carb backload Monday nite after training and then do I carb backload after tarining on Tuesday or not since I will have an off day the next day on Wednesday?
Last but not least if I take off for the weekend (Sat and Sun) and plan to trian on Monday, should I backload on Sunday nite for Monday's evening session or not?
I am really confused as what to do on off days, so here's what I'm doing now:
Off-Days 180g Protein, 180g Fat, 200g carbs (in evening)
Training Days: 130g P, 30g Fat, 600g carbs (post-training till bed).
My total cals for each day is around 3200 ( I am 174 trying to get to 180)
The only differnce in each day is my macro distribution.
Am I doing this right? (FYI I have the CBL book..just confused)
THANKS! ;)
28 Nov, 2012
Spencer
So I have a backloading question. I am density bulking and train 3 days a week (sometimes 4). If I train on say Monday evening, would i still backload Monday nite even though I am taking off on Tuesday? Also, on Tuesday nite should I backload for Wednesday evening's training session, just have a single carb meal, or go sans carbs?
Now let's say I train on back to back days (Mon and Tues). So I carb backload Monday nite after training and then do I carb backload after tarining on Tuesday or not since I will have an off day the next day on Wednesday?
Last but not least if I take off for the weekend (Sat and Sun) and plan to trian on Monday, should I backload on Sunday nite for Monday's evening session or not?
I am really confused as what to do on off days, so here's what I'm doing now:
Off-Days 180g Protein, 180g Fat, 200g carbs (in evening)
Training Days: 130g P, 30g Fat, 600g carbs (post-training till bed).
My total cals for each day is around 3200 ( I am 174 trying to get to 180)
The only differnce in each day is my macro distribution.
Am I doing this right? (FYI I have the CBL book..just confused)
THANKS! ;)
06 Dec, 2012
Roneal Ram
I've just started this program. My only question is that what exactly can or can't I eat after my workout in the evenings? I skip breakfast as advised. Drink whye protein shake in the day along with other protein foods and good fats. Then I train with weights and do cardio at night. Is it true that I should load up on carbs like white rice, burgers, fries, ice cream etc? And does this backloading prepare me for the next day's training? During the daytime I stay well below the 30 grams of carb as suggested. Thank You! - Roneal Ram
01 Feb, 2013
steve
what do you think about backloading for a rower? hour of rowing 6 days a weeks at 5 am and 3 days of lifting around 4 pm?
-thanks
01 Feb, 2013
steve
what do you think about backloading for a rower? hour of rowing 6 days a weeks at 5 am and 3 days of lifting around 4 pm?
-thanks
03 Feb, 2013
Kizer
Hey Sean,
Huge Fan!
I'm a big fat guy and want out lol- I just got done doing a two week Atkins fast and want to do Carb Back- Loading.
I can only train in the AM due to kids and lovely wife- so carb fast for 10 days (mimicking SHOCKWAVE + SANS coffee) down VIVARIN up to 800mg for training, post workout leucine/creatine/whey, carb back load 10th night meal, repeat no carbs for three days, then backload, and repeat til....forever?
11 Mar, 2013
Ryan
Interested in this shockwave protocol, but cant find it on DH hardcore website anymore. Anyone know where I can find it?
19 Mar, 2013
Tyler
Hi Sean,
I have a similar question to Spencer's above. I'm a bit confused as to when to back load if rest days are coming up. My current training split is:
Monday/Tuesday upper then lower body strength/power training.
Wednesday REST
Thurs/Fri/Sst back shoulders/legs/chest arms hypertrophy training. all pretty heavy lifting and decent volume.
I assumed I only backload on days I train ie Mon/Tues/Thurs/Fri/Sat. is this correct? OR like Spencer was asking do i load on the rest days and dont load on the training day before a rest day?
Currently on day 9 of the no carb lead up so I hope that makes sense, thanks in advance! Looking forward to first backload!!
08 Jun, 2013
John
Same question as above, although seems this thread has gone quiet. I've asked this question ALL OVER THE PLACE, and it's the single most confusing aspect of CBL... the off-day consumption of carbs if you're training the next day, and the workout-day consumption if you're not? If you're not supposed to backload on a workout day when the following day is a rest day (as I suspect), but you should backload on rest-day when you're working out the following day, then MILLIONS of people are doing CBL WRONG from what I have read all over the internet! It's ridiculous! CLARIFICATION IS REQUIRED!!!
11 Jun, 2013
malicka
Hi,
I'm trying to get started on this carb backloading can some one tell where do i start
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